What Is Influencer Marketing & Is it Safe for Healthcare?

Read the Full TranscriptStewart Gandolf

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to our podcast. Today, I’m going to welcome the very gracious Danielle Wiley, CEO of the Sway Group. And I’ve got to tell you that last time we did this I screwed up so, Danielle, thank you for being patient. I’ve done this 200 times.

I have never forgotten to record or so, and it was such a good one. So this time we’re gonna try really hard to bring back the magic. So it’s happened to me. By the way, when I’ve been recorded, I’ve been interviewed up, but I’ve never done it myself. It’s not.

Danielle Wiley

I’m kidding.

Stewart Gandolf

To me. And I’ve talked to people that do this a lot. And apparently it’s a thing. So this time I’m like, Oh, wow! I apologize again. This will be fun now, because it’s gonna be great. You had a such a good input.

So the good news is, we already have really good notes on what to talk about today.

Take 2. So let’s talk about what? How to and how do what is influencer marketing? How is it grown? Your CEO? By the way, I admire your work. The reason why we’re talking at all is because I noticed just how great you know I get your newsletter. I think there’s lots of good stuff there, so give us a little on influencer marketing.

Danielle Wiley

So just what it is at its core.

Stewart Gandolf

Well, yeah, like core. And then, you know, I think your story. Let’s just start there with some basics.

Danielle Wiley

Yeah. So I mean at its core. Influencer marketing is simply brands using influencers to help tell their story. I think it’s really grew out of spokespeople, which has been a thing forever. I mean, if you can. I’m like thinking of. I love Lucy and Vitami to Benjamin. It’s it’s gotten a little bit more. What’s the word? A little bit more refined. I think. But that’s what it is at its essence. And you know, when I started the business I came from PR and was building up influencer marketing. This is over 15 years ago, and everything was really Mom-blogger focused. That was the first niche or vertical to really start getting paid for sponsored content. And I helped build that up. I was like I said I was working at a giant PR agency. We had lots of food clients, baby care type product, CPG, and we were paying mom bloggers to come to events to write blog posts about the products that we were promoting and it I just could kind of see that it was going to explode tremendously. The number of influencers was exploding day after day, and I felt like the stories they were telling were incredibly compelling, and I could see how they were reaching their audience. But at the same time I could see that even coming from an agency, and then certainly looking kind of backwards at the brands who are paying us to do this.

None of us had the bandwidth to be managing these programs, and they were getting more and more complex just because it was getting harder and harder to find the right people to vet them, to figure out the contracts, to pay them, to do all the negotiating, to make sure the content was correct. There are just so many pieces and parts to what has now become influencer marketing. And so that’s where Sway Group came from just kind of seeing the need for there to be some kind of agency that sat in the middle between the either the brands directly, or the PR agencies or media buying agencies creating these programs on their behalf.

And then, on the other side, the influencers who you know, most of them didn’t come from a marketing background. They were just—back then, when it was all long form, written content. They were great writers who had a story to share, but they didn’t necessarily know the term, the marketing terminology. They didn’t know how much they should be charging to do these brand programs. And so we created Sway Group to kind of help, bring those 2 sides together and create really awesome content.

Stewart Gandolf

That’s awesome. So you said something. There is another insight. I get so many insights when I talk to you that a lot of the influencers were great writers at the beginning. If you feel like that’s still the case, they just naturally are good writers, because people just assume oh, they’re just clever, but being a good writer, to be able to craft a story, kind of see it from beginning to middle to end. Is that a prerequisite to be a good influencer, like what makes a great influencer.

Danielle Wiley

Not anymore. very few categories are focused in that long form, written content space. Blogs are obviously still a thing, but not as popular. You see them a lot in the food world just because people Google to find recipes. And so then you find a food blog. These days, though that writing, I think the quality of it. This is kind of a hot take, but I think the quality of it has kind of decreased a little because it’s very focused right now on SEO, and just getting as many eyeballs onto that content as possible, and then having lots of that content there so that you can show more ads on the blog post. So it’s certainly not that deep storytelling that we used to see influencers now are, it’s the focus is very much video, which was not a thing when I started in the late 2000s, there just wasn’t. I mean, obviously, there was video technology, but it wasn’t the quality, wasn’t there. It wasn’t as accessible to everyone in the palm of their hands. The editing tools weren’t what they are now, and they’re. you know, we didn’t have TikTok. We didn’t have Instagram like so hard to believe right? But yeah. So now it’s I was actually just talking to a woman who’s writing a book about the evolution of the mom influencer industry. It’s changed a lot. It’s a lot more focused now on being mediagenic and being able to create these amazing videos, whether it’s, you know. featuring what you’re cooking or talking to the video, if it’s more lifestyle based, or if it’s beauty doing like a get ready with me where you’re putting on your makeup. It’s there’s much less of a focus now on written content than than video.

Stewart Gandolf

Yeah, that makes sense for sure. So we talked last time and about the DNC. The Democratic National Convention. And I thought that was just such an interesting I guess controversy at the time where the the influencers were getting more attention at the Democratic Convention than the press. But wow! That’s a head snapper. Any comments on that? Because it’s just such a new world that we’re in.

Danielle Wiley

I mean, I think I think that’s kind of a reflection of the fact that the Democratic party in particular has a really big focus on Gen. Z.

I know your kids are around the same ages as mine are, and I’m guessing they get their news in the same way, which is TikTok and so it’s. you know. It’s just another form of of journalism, right? I mean, certainly, hopefully. These creators are sharing their sources and are not you know, are holding themselves up to a journalistic standard. But at the end of the day, if that’s where Gen Z. Is getting their information from and experiencing the DNC. Like my husband and I sat and watched it, like on TV, on network TV. We watched it taking place. My kids watched it through TikTok, through social media. So I think it was really, really savvy to make influencers a really big part of that, so that that experience could be shared out with a generation that’s vital to the party.

Stewart Gandolf

Yeah, for sure. And it’s funny. I was just talking about this the other day. I don’t know if you remember this, Danielle, but there was a book called Here Comes Everybody that came out, probably around 2006, 2008, and it talked about exactly something you just mentioned there, which is that?

Okay? Now, everybody. It’s great that we’re giving everybody the voice, but there’s no like curation at all. So we hope that they’re accurate. We hope that they’re good, right? But it’s not, you know. It’s just the way it is. So everybody’s got a microphone today for good and ill.

And it’s been really interesting. Having read that book back in the day. And going wow! That was really precious. They really had that figured out. So it’s a really exciting time. But I want to go back actually for a second and just say congratulations on seeing this opportunity with, when you decide to do this, I love that you A saw it, and B had the guts to go for it. I think that’s just awesome. What a fun ride this must be for you to sort of watch it evolve and change over time. So I always love entrepreneurialism, and that’s just awesome that you saw that.

Danielle Wiley

It’s funny because I’m not I never wanted to be a CEO like I hear people call themselves serial entrepreneurs. and like that sounds terrible to me. It’s really hard, and it’s not I don’t know. It’s not something I aspire to. I love. I love running this company and doing what I do. But really it was more that like, I just saw that this had to be done, and I knew I would be irritated if someone else did it instead of me. And it was. It was just kind of this fight I had within myself, and I was like, I just have to do it. But it wasn’t. I’m not one of those people who was always looking for. You know, what company am I gonna start with my big idea. I just wanna like start something. I was very happy in my job.

Stewart Gandolf

I think that’s really common, like I call myself sometimes the reluctant leader like I’m a leader. I lead all the time I have to make decisions really quickly, because I remember the moment I started leading before I had a company. It’s like. because I always thought somebody else would have better ideas. And eventually it’s like, Well, somebody’s got to do something. Here, let’s okay. You do this. You do this and do this and all that works, and everybody fell behind, and I couldn’t believe it, so I don’t lead for the glory of it, or start a company for the glory of it. It’s like something’s gonna get done. And it’s like, Okay, fine. I’ll do it fine. I’ll do it.

Danielle Wiley

Right, right.

Stewart Gandolf

So I love. I really admire that you got in there. That’s awesome that you caught that early. Another quick question on that note. If things change like, I know it’s changed. And you mentioned just talked about the types of going to video. Is it as fun as it used to be, or do you like? Do you still and get that passion? For things are always changing because you have to be up on it with your field for sure. and I’m just curious how that feels.

Danielle Wiley

Yeah, I mean. some of it is just having. We’ve been doing this a while, and we have a great team now. So I don’t have to be the one person who’s up on everything.

yeah, I think it’s still fun. What’s kind of what’s fun about it is that it changes all the time, like it’s we’re jumping into 2025 planning now with most of our clients. And there’s a chance that TikTok which is like for some of our clients over 50% of the content that they’re doing with us. And it might go away mid-January.

So that that’s keeping us on our toes. The new platforms are arising all the time. Algorithms are constantly changing. We have new generations coming up like we’re now the way that Gen. Z works and applies for our campaigns and interacts with what we’re doing is totally different from how Millennials work, from how Gen X worked. And so we’re having to figure out how to navigate that generation. And then, by the time we figure it out, Gen Alpha is gonna be old enough to start getting paid by us on programs. And they’re gonna work in a totally different way from Gen. Z. So I like change. And I, I, I get bored easily. So in that sense, yeah, it’s still fun.

Stewart Gandolf

Awesome. So let’s talk about what a realistic goals we talked about. Background plenty. Now let’s talk about like if you’re new to this, or you’ve been thinking about this, and of course our clients are in healthcare. We’ll talk about healthcare, the sort of unique aspects of it in a moment, but more just, general, if you’re new to this whole thing, you’re used to spending money on more traditional channels. And now he’s like, okay. Finally, I’m ready for this. What? What should? What are some basic expectations? If you’re like.

you know, before we get it started? Let’s talk about some of the things you need to keep in mind.

Danielle Wiley

Yeah, I mean, I think the most important thing to remember is that it is. It’s part of your marketing mix. And the basic marketing rules still exist, no matter what medium you’re using. So when people are making a purchase decision, they still need to see something. I know the numbers vary. But let’s say 6 to 10 times before they make a decision, just because you can measure all the way down through to the purchase and influencer marketing because it is all on the Internet, because we have great tracking. Now we can see when someone sees something, and then they like it. And then they comment, and then they click, and then they buy it just because we can track. That doesn’t mysteriously make it that you can jump right to the bottom of the funnel and ignore all the top of funnel stuff that we learned about when we were when I never studied marketing, but through the school of hard knocks, but like it doesn’t, it doesn’t take away the importance of top of funnel and awareness. So yes, we can track through to purchase. But that doesn’t mean that you don’t still need awareness. And so that’s 1 of the biggest mistakes I see people making when they they jump into influencer marketing, and they think they’re going to just instantly make sales that all of these

influencers are going to be driving people to purchase immediately. But the fact is that you still need to build that general awareness and influencer marketing is actually amazing for that. Some influencers are good at like getting people to click and make that purchase instantly. Not all of them are, but that doesn’t mean that they’re not useful, because you still need to hit people at every stage of that funnel.

Stewart Gandolf

Yep, totally so. Healthcare, healthcare, healthcare, healthcare. Nothing is easy in healthcare. So tell me about healthcare.

Danielle Wiley

Yeah, nothing’s easy in healthcare, but it can be done. You can market healthcare via influencer marketing, and it can be incredibly compelling. I think when you’re when you’re looking at Pharma, for example, like those real 1st person stories are really important to share, and they can reach people in a way that marketing and branding that comes from the brand and just kind of feels like it’s coming from a giant entity might not reach people in the heart in the same way that that something would, coming from an influencer that said any regulated industry just brings with it a whole other like slew of things that you have to think about. So just in terms of the rules, the disclosures that are required. on our side. Those programs are always a little bit more complicated because you have more people on the brand side looking at everything, the legal review of the influencers. We’re using the concepts that are gonna talk about the actual content that they’re creating what’s written in the caption like, there’s just a much higher level of oversight, and all of that. But we’re actually pretty good at this, I think, because we’ve been doing this for so long. And we have some really clear processes in place, and we’re great at dealing with both agencies and with brands, and we have lots of tools for that. So I think one of the things I would say about healthcare and influencer marketing, and this applies for all regulated industries. So you could kind of take this if you’re marketing alcohol or you’re marketing financial services, anything that’s highly regulated, you need to work with an agency that’s been doing this for a while and has very clear and defined processes, and that you feel comfortable trusting with this because there is a lot of there’s a reason there are so many people looking at this content because you don’t want to mess up when something’s highly regulated.

Stewart Gandolf

Yeah, I’ll give you a plug on that, Danielle. I totally. I mean, like, when we have clients that are that become interested in this topic you’ll be the 1st name I bring up because we honestly, this is something that—we’re a really good agency—But this is not our area of expertise. It’s 1 of the few things we don’t do internally. and I don’t have any desire to do it, because it’s its whole thing, and you have enough complexity in healthcare as it is, and I feel like, if you’re a brand that can afford to do influencer marketing on top of everything else. They’re, you know, there’s some high risk there. They’re pretty much want to make sure they do this right, because you’ve got a lot and things can go awry really quickly.

So I think it’s great that people like you exist to walk. People, you know, walk, take my hand, and walk me through this very, very world. Speaking of disasters, we talked a little bit about kind of an unknown beer company out there. Share with. I’d love to hear your thoughts on that.